I have read a few articles about the revival in Lakeland, Florida. Some are positive while some are critical. Remember that all critical do not have to be negative! Some are simply being critical based on things such as Bentleys theology etc.
Anyways, I read today that we have to wait and see whether or not Bentley is from God–The fruit of his work will tell!
This is interesting. We all claim that the Azuzastreet revival was from God. But the fruits from this revival was not the best. The revival in itself was very successful…..but then itcrashed and W. Seymore almost lost everything. The entire “movement” almost diminished. Can we judge the fruit of this work?
Paul was rather unsuccessful as he tried to start a church in Cyprus, was he not? Does that mean that Paul was bad?
Let us take this a step further, Jesus was rather unsuccessful in his hometown…..Can we always judge on the fruit?
My QUESTION to you is Can we always judge based on the fruit? If so, what would the fruit be in Lakeland that we can judge based on?
Related posts:
I want to ask: must we judge at all? Are we obligated to judge? Who has asked us to judge what happens in Lakeland? Can we not just thank God for all miracles taking place, for all people getting saved, for all people making new commitments to God? (wrong spelling ?…)
Jesus got a question from his deciples about a man they did not know – if he was “wrong” in his doings. Jesus asked them: In which name is he healing the people/casting out demons? They answered: I Your name! So …
Take it easy folks – Jesus is still in command!
In Matthew 7:15-20 Jesus says that “by their(referring to false prophets) fruit you will recognize them.” He goes on to say that a good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Naturally speaking all trees (good and bad)die. Some prematurely, others last for thousands of years. Either way, one day they no longer bear fruit in themselves. This is a normal part of nature. Another thing is also true, some fruit drops to the ground and rots, never feeding anyone. But fruit is filled with precious little seeds that will eventually produce another sapling, that turns into a tree, that eventually turns into a tree that bears fruit again. Azusa street “died out”, but those seeds one day got a 16 year old boy name Anthony filled with the Holy Spirit in a radical way.
I think it is possible to recognize whether a person is being used by God or not by their fruit. I also think it is possbile to recognize rotten fruit, which simply means…don’t eat it! Eat the good fruit! One tree can produce both.
Another good Biblical guideline would be Gamalial’s advice found in (Acts 5:33-42).
So when is it time to cut down a tree that doesn’t bear fruit or bears bad fruit? Speaking in kingdom of God terms I would have to reiterate from the comment above…”Take it easy folks – Jesus is still in command!” He is the wise Lumber Jack;)
Anthony,
Well spoken! I think the reality is that, in the long run, a tree can bear fruit that ends up bad as well as fruit that ends up good. Azusa, there is some bad fruit from that. However, most of it is good, right!?!?
So how can we see in a man like Bently whether or not he is of God?
Why do I ask? Well, Aletheia is talking alot about this. And there is both good and bad stuff to look at. And exactly what is the fruit that Bentley (as a tree) is producing? Where do we look?
Hey Peter,
Following is the account of when John the Baptist asked Jesus whether He was from God or not:
Matthew 11
Jesus and John the Baptist
1After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.[a]
2When John heard in prison what Christ was doing, he sent his disciples 3to ask him, “Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?”
4Jesus replied, “Go back and report to John what you hear and see: 5The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[b]are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. 6Blessed is the man who does not fall away on account of me.”
I would say if verse 4-6 is happening through Bently than we can say he is from God. Especially if the last sentence is true. Are people falling away from Jesus or drawing closer to Him as a result of Bentleys ministry? Or are they drawing closer to Bentley? I suppose both are true because people will always be people.
Another truth also remains. Bentley is a human being. Dr Sumrall once said, “Men of God have feet of clay.” We have to remember that God can flow through whomever He chooses, but that person will have weaknesses. Usually we focus on those weaknesses instead of what Jesus is doing thru the imperfect vessel. This is human nature.
In the end, God will have the final say.
To end my statement I would have to say one of my wife’s classic statements. “If I knew everything, I would be God.” Truth is, I don’t, but I sure like striving to figure things out:)
I enjoy reading your blog…..it makes me think! God bless you and gratis on your soon coming new arrival. We just had our third child a couple days ago! I love being a dad!
I´ve just come home to Uppsala from a visit in Lakeland. I must admit that I am not drawn to Bentley for his rough and rugged way of ministering, nor the somewhat unorganized “style” in the services. I can not really understand why the guy has not been teaching and preaching more from the Word earlier in the revival, when he recently prooves that he has some excellent, classical faithteaching like “30 reasons why God wants to heal you”. I´ve questioned his sharing of spectacular visions, as well as being in my opinion to openhearted about his tragic background and former crimes. I do not see the benefit of displaying some of his most contoversial prophet-friends, and I have questioned why it is neccesary to break most patterns of normal conduct in the pulpet. Honestly I could prefer a more mainstream apperance, that could suite most people when a healing-outpouring that I´ve been waiting for suddenly is here, on world wide TV.
But inspite of all this I can not deny that I was deeply moved by the wonderful presence of the Holy Spirit in Lakeland. I was struck by the desperate hunger of the attendants, by the boldness Todd demonstrated in the word of knowledge and in faith for the impossible, and I recognized the same sweet anointing, released as waves and waves of glory, that is so precious and that I know since I was a child. And God uses Todd to release it. Wonderful!
I pray this move of God will be protected from being excluded from former generations and moves of God, and from the body of Christ in historical Churches and denominations. And that Todd and his people will be able to receive correction if neccesary – without excluding themselves from other parts of the body.
I have heard multiple testimonies from youth, from unchurched and ordinary workingclass-people totally transformed by watching Lakeland. I pray we don´t miss a move of God, as we are knowing so well what is right, without really putting it into action in our own lives on a daily basis.
The Bible is clear, we are to discern the prophetic. And I pray that we are able to discern both the good and bad, keeping the good parts, and that we are able to focus on the things of God, and not expose the human elements, like the sons of Noah exposed his nakedness.
Reading the Bible we already know that humans might fail or speak wrong in different situations, just like Peter – speaking revelation “You are the Messiah” and next moment being corrected for totally wrong inspiration. We will be dissappointed craving perfection from others, but God will never fail.
For me Lakeland has resulted in hunger. “Let there be less of me, more of you…”
Anthony,
I love the fact that you go straight to the word. Wow, you guys just had a baby!!! Congrats, we did not know this. Wow we are so happy for you!
As far as the account you mention, Jesus is referring to the evidence that he is the Messiah. This hardly applies to Bently. Further, Jesus also claims that false prophets can perform miracles, right?
I think the last part of that verse is one awesome key. Does the people get closer to God or not. Is their knowledge in God growing, is their relationship with him getting deeper? And I think you are so right in your answer. We are dealing with people. Regardless of how the fruit turns out (this depending on the vessels the seed is put into). I think we need to look at the seed that is sown, that is all Bentley can control. We determine how that seed grows.
We are more so in charge of the good fruit than is Bentley. He is only planting the seed in us. Just as Jesus said, Some seed falls in good ground and some in bad ground. We are all receiving the seed differently. Thus, we cannot really look at the lasting fruits while determining whether or not a person is of God.
We have to look at the seed sown. Is the direct result that the people are drawn closer to God or not.
Sorry for the lack of paragraphs, weird computer here.
Jarle,
I think that most people being critical towards Bentley has a problem with his “ways of doing things.” We are so used to church being performed a certain way that we cannot accept it when it comes in a different way.
Betley is so different in all of his ways. He looks different, talks different, walks differents etc.
I, personally, had a problem with some of his theology even before the Lakeland thing started. I watched his praise and worship earlier and had some problems accepting that as well. It surely did not bring me closer to God. Watching Bentely actually made me switch the channel.
I have not watch anything from Lakeland. He might be totally operating under God’s awesome anointing–I do not know. Your testimony and many others with you is great.
If we cannot see in an obvious way that Bentely is of the devil, then let us welcome him as he seemingly draws people closer to God.
My tongue will not be one that criticize Bentley and the work of God through him.
However, the Bible mentions that even the “elect can be deceived” which is why we have to be on guard.
Nice to hear from you Mr. Jarle
Peter,
Thanks for the reply. I see you aren’t going to let me off the hook to easy! Awesome:). You said,
“As far as the account you mention, Jesus is referring to the evidence that he is the Messiah. This hardly applies to Bently”
I agree 100%. That is why I chose that verse, not to point to Bentley, but to Jesus. Isn’t it Jesus, the Messiah, we are looking for in any ministry? Aren’t the ministry gifts there to help the body of Christ “attaine to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ?”(Eph 4:13) In order to determine if someone is from God, the evidence of Him (Jesus) must be there…right? If Jesus Himself pointed to such evidence as found in Matthew 11:4-6 to describe Himself to John as the Messiah, shouldn’t we look for the same evidence that He is present through a person who claims to be being used by Him?
I am glad you brought out the other side also. The point about false prophets performing miracles etc.. This is very important to remember.
2 Thes 2:9-12(paraphrased) says, “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan, displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs, and wonders. and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved…all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
The central point is the Person of Jesus, and a love for the truth that leads to salvation. When lieing signs and wonders are present through false prophets I believe their will also be a refusal to “love the truth and so be saved.” Truth is a key ingredient to determine if Jesus is present. Since He is “the way, the TRUTH, and the life.”
Jesus said something similar in Matthew 24:24. He revealed that deception was an ingredient mixed into the miracles of false prophets. Deception and lie’s are for sure not connected to the ministry or minster of Jesus. If they are, it will result in the downfall of that ministry sooner or later. And Jesus will still end up being glorifed as Truth.
Thanks for helping me to clarify my thinking. I long to be able to understand God’s word and communicate my thinking through writing better.You are a great help in this!Thanks my friend!
Hey Peter,
Before Lakeland came on God TV, I think most people in Europe, just like me, had never heard of Todd Bentley. Spontaniously I had a hard time watching because to me it looked like “hype” and emontionalism. But as I was watching the testimonies of the people getting healed, and the focused worship, and later even when 3 of my close relatives received Jesus in front of the TV, my critisism silenced. Now I was open but discerning, and listening for strange and “flaky” doctrines. But not negative. Watching in this mood, I found that Lakeland could be a blessing, and more than entertainment and really good television. Comparing with a hundred boring TV-chanels, this was exciting, catchy and fresh – to watch the name of Jesus glorified on TV, was not bad! Not to mention our teenagers who hardly would miss a service – and invited their friends, to get hold of the fire. Jesus became real to people in our livingroom, and the teenagers would rather have a Lakeland night, than a movie night with their friends!! We rejoiced over what Jesus did, and I was glad for the strong focus on Jesus, and that Todd, Roy Fields and thousands of people went totally bananas for Jesus, and spent hours in true, raw and wholehearted worship night after night.
I have never been very keen on watching christian TV in general, because I like to have real communion with people. And also I think it is not neccesary because I am so blessed to be part of Livets Ord. Here we are always served superb spiritual healthfood from some of the best bible teachers and internationally acknowledged minister´s, who´s aim always seem to bring varied, well balanced food,
in line with the great historical heritage of theology. Livets Ord also has a heritage of miracles, and carry on the torch pastor Ulf Ekman got from Lester Sumrall, who personally met Smith Wigglesworth, the remarkable healing minister who prophesied some of the great outpourings to come. In other words, we have been brought up on sound, steady faith food in a fiery, local Church, with a visionary and prophetic pastor, who sees God´s visions come to pass through a local Church who collectively believes for miracles. With the authority significant of an apostolic ministry Ulf Ekman has planted not only Livets Ord, but many Churches in rich ad fruitful soil. And with a vision to teach, Livets Ord keeps on equipping God´s people with his Word of Faith, aming to be a beacon of truth and sound theology. Why then watch Lakeland, is it a sign of developing bad taste? : )
TODD´S THEOLOGY?
I get curious when you say you have not watched anything from Lakeland, but that you had a problem with some of Bentley´s theology even before Lakeland started. Can you develop that a little more? I ask because we need to take this seriously, since many even – young and unexperienced are involved, and seem to be happy and blessed. Will they react against citisism just like many did in the early days of Livets Ord, and exclude themselves from the critics?
For me this is not about the outward appearance. It is true that the soundness of a revival can not be judged by manifestations and miracles, but about the fruit – and most of all about what it´s leaders really teaches, compared to the Word of God. Today I read the Swedish charismatic newspaper Världen i Dag´s interview with the pastor in Ignited Church, Lakeland. I found it a bit sad to read about the crimes of the pastor´s brother, and the failure of his father, and the sceptisim Assemblies of God has against Todd. (Same as against Ulf Ekman some years ago?) I expected to read some uplifting, faith building testimonies of all the healed and happy people. I understand some have com from Lakeland in a wrong attitude, and got angry because Världen i Dag has not reported undividedly positive. But isn´t this typical? People get happy and excited, and may be dissappointed when they get little response? Anyway this kind of reactions are NOT the way to create hunger, rather more critisism.
But if Världen i dag chose not to applaude but rather send out signals of warning, I smell a rat. There might be more unpleasant reports following. Since I trust Världen i Dag, not to join the choir of “apologetic” witchhunters from Youtube – they must have their reasons for not being so enthusiastic about Lakeland. I´ve talked to people who base their worries on alarming Youtube clips, made by dogmatics who for shure as easily could start a witchhunt against Livets Ord as against Lakeland. But since Todd is not new in America, and since there are numerous Spiritfilled, sound theological institutions in the US, I would really like to hear if someone have made an effort to study Todd Bentley academically, to descern the soundness of his theology.
I don´t know if the guy claims to have a defined theology at all? My impression is that he is the typical crusade evangelist, with a million dedications, firework demonstrations of signs and wonders, pointing people to Jesus, and that he was born in to the Toronto revival, and has grown up in surroundings where manifestations that are a bit odd to us, are quite normal?
What about ordinary people, who did not yet attend sunday school, but have been saved or healed in Lakeland? They are happy, and might hard time accepting critisism at all. With them in mind I hope that some of the critisism is not a reaction on a wrong reaction, by frustrated charismatics.
But again, everything must line up with the Word of God, and there is a great need for sound Spirit filled theologians, (and reporters) to encourage the new generation of fireballpreachers not to quit, but to hit!
I like the way you approach the issue, Peter. Looking forward to hear your thoughts about Todd´s theology!
Mvh Jarle
Jarle,
I wish I could refer back to the things I reacted to when I listened to Bentley. But as you, I am not very hot on Christian TV and when someone makes flaky remarks and the whole deal is off in a biblical sense, I stop watching. I cannot refer to his theology and make it justice since I simply do not remember. He was one of many people on GodTv with weird stuff. GodTv has an ability to get a lot of speakers who have cool stuff going on, but very little of it can be grounded in the Word.
Some of my saddest moments have been infront of GodTv. For example, young Mr. Herzog. He is having his campaigns based around the presence of God. He claims that when God’s presence and anointing comes over us the molecule-structure changes. He is famouns for delivering Instant Weight Loss–Miracles! People are loosing their clothes during his services since the presence of God removes their fat!
Well, I think that the soundness of God would change the mind of people and give them the discipline of eating right and exercise in order to loose weight. This with the exception of obesity due to sickness.
Or how about the guy “selling” miracle water. There is a guy on Christian TV providing a tube of Miracle Water from a spring (in Israel, I think). People can get a large tube or a small tube, both with a personalized prophecy written by this guy. Sprinkle the water on your house and you will get your house paid off!! Or sprinkle it on your driveway and someone will come and give you a car.
All this is claimed to be a biblical blessing.
There are more examples. The scary thing, I cannot find support for this in the Bible, except for the fact that God is almighty. Even more scary, there are tons of people giving their testimony of how this works. Crying ladies telling stories about houses paid off, promotions at work, healings, weight loss and so on.
For me, Bentley was one more person in the line of those above. GodTv seems to get more of this sort all the time.
Having that said, I agree with what you say about growing up within Livets Ord and the soundness there. Also with the background we have. We should be able to determine what is going on with Bentley. I must say that I cannot judge his CURRENT theology and happenings in Lakeland. I think we need to be careful to point our fingers at him. What if he is one of God’s anointed? Then we need to support and bless him.
Judging from what you have to say, God is there! (people claim to have come closer to God while listening to KISS “God Gave RR to Us.”)
I hope that Världen Idag can investigate and bring some light to this. As of today, my research is too limited to say anything academic. The guys on aletheia seem sure on their cause. If Bentely teaches all that they say, then he needs to be corrected. I think it is possible that he brings people closer to God because God is letting him, God is pouring out himself, not Bentley. It is important that Bentely stick to the Word if he is God’s vessel in this.
So to make this loooong story short. No comments on his theology since I have not reseached it and I do not remember good enough to refer to it. I only remember that I reacted to it as false.
All the best to you
Jarle
Further remarks…
I am sure you remember the Vineyard revival that we experienced in the mid 90′s. It was great with miracles, new hunger for God etc, and spiritual demonstrations.
ALL of my friends that left Livets Ord (as far as I know) are now far from God over all. That is the long lasting fruit I can see from that. Maybe you have some better examples. The fruit we need to look at is the good and lasting fruit.
Having that said, there will always be a great number of people that will fall away, this regardless of which revival or happening they experienced.
Conclusion, how do we know whom will leave God in the future? And what do we know about the real cause of them leaving.
It is extremly hard to determine in any other way then experience it yourself and to confirm it with the Word.
So, you, Jarle, should be able to give a good word whether or not Bentley is true and it really is an outpouring from God and of God. You have been there and you know your Bible.
Personally, I FEEL reserved to it.
Thanks for your simple and honest answer, Peter. A simple explanation why people testify that they experience God in Lakeland may be because they are seaking God, and not Todd Bentley. “And they who hunger and thirst for righteousness shall be filled.”
People who visit new revivals have all different reasons. There are “cruiseomatics” that who will never be satisfied anywhere, and nothing is good enough. Some are so right in doctrine that they never find a fellowship with people of flesh and blood good enough, and some are never able to commit themselves to a local church. Others just pick and chose from the smorgasboard, and seem to be picking a new restaurant as soon as the food is not fancy enough. Might be pure rebellion, and result in backsliding after a while. But I think most people are desperate for the real thing, – for God. The motives will come forth, sooner or later.
I thank God for pioneers like Ulf Ekman and others who were enough open minded to go to Tulsa and other places. Sometimes it can be fruitful to get out of the comfort zone and see something new, something that challenges, and broaden the things you have already got.
That does not contradict that the “one man revival”, spending time alone, becoming intimate with God and his Word is the most important and lifechanging revival.
Be blessed, bro!
Interesting. Adviced to friends